The Higher Jhanas -The Imperturbable and the path and fruition knowledges

MN # 105

To Sunakkhatta

Sunakkhatta Sutta

Dhamma talk by Bhante Vimalaramsi

Dhamma Sukha Meditation Center

10-Oct-06

We pick it up here as the Buddha discusses how with each higher attainment we no longer have interest in the previous abiding.

10. "It is possible, Sunakkhatta, that some person here may be intent on the imperturbable. When a person is intent on the imperturbable, only talk concerning that interests him, and his thinking and pondering are in line with that, and he associates with that kind of person, and he finds satisfaction in that. But when talk about worldly material things is going on, he will not listen to it or give it ear or exert his mind to understand it. He does not associate with that kind of person, and he does not find satisfaction in that.

11. "Just as a yellow leaf that has fallen from its stalk is incapable of becoming green again, so too, Sunakkhatta, when a person is intent on the imperturbable he has shed the fetter of worldly material things. He should be understood as a person detached from the fetter of worldly material things who is intent on the imperturbable.

12. "It is possible, Sunakkhatta, that some person here may be intent on the base of nothingness. When a person is intent on the base of nothingness, only talk concerning that interests him, and his thinking and pondering are in line with that, and he associates with that kind of person, and he finds satisfaction in that. [255] But when talk about the imperturbable is going on, he will not listen to it or give it ear or exert his mind to understand it.

BV: The imperturbable is the first part of the fourth jhāna and it’s also talking about the realm of infinite space and the realm of infinite consciousness. That's what he's lumping together as the imperturbable. As your mind gets more and more balanced, more and more calm, you start to see when your mind is doing this and you let it go right then and relax, and then you see what happens right before your mind had the bigger movements. As you go deeper and deeper into that you will eventually get to a state of nothingness, where mind is not looking outside of itself. The six sense doors don't come into being unless there's contact, but you still have the six sense doors at that time. When you get to neither-perception-nor-non-perception, there is no more sense doors.

MN:
He does not associate with that kind of person, and he does not find satisfaction in that.

BV: So, once you start getting into the deeper realms you really feel like talking to other people that have the same kind of experience, and talking about other things just doesn't hold it for you so much, doesn't hold your attention.

MN:
13. "Just as a thick stone that has split in two cannot be joined together again, so too, Sunakkhatta, when a person is intent on the base of nothingness his fetter of the imperturbable has been split. He should be understood as a person detached from the fetter of the imperturbable

BV: The fetters are the disturbances of the lower jhānas and the lower jhānas being infinite space, infinite consciousness.

Repeats (He should be understood as a person detached from the fetter of the imperturbable)

MN:
who is intent on the base of nothingness.

14. "It is possible, Sunakkhatta, that some person here may be intent on the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception. When a person is intent on the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, only talk concerning that interests him, and his thinking and pondering are in line with that, and he associates with that kind of person, and he finds satisfaction in that. But when talk about the base of nothingness is going on, he will not listen to it or give it ear or exert his mind to understand it.

BV: Because he already knows it.

MN:
He does not associate with that kind of person, and he does not find satisfaction in that.

BV: When you get into the realm of neither-perception-nor-non-perception it's really tough to see what's happening in the present. There's still things that are happening. By the time that you get to this state, you should automatically have the relaxing every mind does anything at all. Anything that arises in the mind just relaxing into it, relax, relax, relax, relax... Now, there's still things that happen while you're in this realm of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, but the perception is so fine that you can't tell whether it's really there or not in the present moment. When you come out and you start reflecting about what happened while you were in that state, then you start remembering some of the things that were happening. There is still feeling in that state. I've had some students that have asked, you know they say "You know, I don't know whether I was asleep or not". And the way you tell whether there was any sloth and torpor is by reflecting what happened while you were in that state. So, if you get into that state, then when you come out you need to spend time reflecting on what happened. If you can remember what happened then you are experiencing that state. If you can't remember what was happening then you were dulling out, and that means that your energy was not balanced. There was too little energy you were putting in. So, what we need to do with something like that is walk a little bit more briskly so that your blood gets flowing a little bit more, but still staying with your meditation all of the time, developing that habit of continually relaxing. That's utmost important.

Repeats ("It is possible, Sunakkhatta, that some person here may be intent on the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception. When a person is intent on the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, only talk concerning that interests him,)

This is an incredibly fine state, but it's also a very interesting state because all kinds of wonderful things start happening.

Repeats (only talk concerning that interests him,)

MN:
and his thinking and pondering are in line with that, and he associates with that kind of person, and he finds satisfaction in that. But when talk about the base of nothingness is going on, he will not listen to it or give it ear or exert his mind to understand it. He does not associate with that kind of person, and he does not find satisfaction in that.

15. "Suppose a person has eaten some delicious food and thrown it up. What do you think, Sunakkhatta? Could that man have any desire to eat that food again?"

"No, venerable sir. Why is that? Because that food is considered repulsive."

"So too, Sunakkhatta, when a person is intent on the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, his fetter of the base of nothingness has been rejected. He should be understood as a person detached from the fetter of the base of nothingness who is intent on the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception.

16. "It is possible, Sunakkhatta, that some person here may be completely intent on Nibbāna. When a person is completely intent on Nibbāna, only talk concerning that interests him, and his thinking and pondering are in line with that, and he associates with that kind of person, and he finds satisfaction in that. But when talk about the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception is going on, [256] he will not listen to it or give it ear or exert his mind to understand it. He does not associate with that kind of person, and he does not find satisfaction in that.

BV: So, we're talking right now about a person that has experienced the path knowledge. That's the first experience of Nibbāna where you see a very brief glimpse of Dependent Origination, but it is a very profound glimpse of Dependent Origination. (Laughs).

The meditator now has experienced the path knowledge of Nibbana.

MN:
17. "Just as a palm tree with its top cut off is incapable of growing again, so too, Sunakkhatta, when a person is completely intent on Nibbāna, his fetter of the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception has been cut off—cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, done away with so that it is no longer subject to future arising. He should be understood as a person detached from the fetter of the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception who is completely intent on Nibbāna.

18. "It is possible, Sunakkhatta, that some bhikkhu here might think thus: 'Craving has been called an arrow by the Recluse; the poisonous humour of ignorance is spread about by desire, lust, and ill will. That arrow of craving has been removed from me; the poisonous humour of ignorance has been expelled. I am one who is completely intent on Nibbāna.' Since he conceives himself thus, though it is contrary to fact, he might pursue those things that are unsuitable for one completely intent on Nibbāna.

BV: That means he has experienced the path, but he hasn't experienced the fruition. The fruition is where you have the experience and it really sets in deep and that's where the personality change occurs. People that experience the path without the fruition can still lose that experience if they're not careful, you'll see.

MN:
He might pursue the sight of unsuitable forms with the eye, he might pursue unsuitable sounds with the ear, unsuitable odours with the nose, unsuitable flavours with the tongue, unsuitable tangibles with the body, or unsuitable mind-objects with the mind. When he pursues the sight of unsuitable forms with the eye... unsuitable mind-objects with the mind, lust invades his mind. With his mind invaded by lust, he would incur death or deadly suffering.

BV: So, if you're not really careful and you don't really keep your precepts very well and you don't keep your practice going, you can lose that experience. That's a little bit different than what most people have heard before. (Laughs)

S: ~

BV: It means if you don't gain the fruit of that experience there is no personality change, and if there's no personality change you still have a tendency to break the precepts, you still have a tendency to get caught up in your lust and hatred and delusion. This is a state where people will start puffing their chest up and saying I have this experience and I'm better than everybody else, and they think that they can do anything they want because "I've had this experience", but they're not being mindful, they're not watching. Yes they're close to the personality development of seeing the fruition of that, but they still have to keep going.

Now, for some people like Sāriputta, as soon as he had the path knowledge all of a sudden his mind just trotted right into the fruition, and that happened a lot more during the time of the Buddha than it does now. The fruition might take a week, it might take a month, it might take five years, but you have to keep your mindfulness going. You have to develop the habit of not getting caught by lust or hatred. You don't have the emotional upsets. You don't have the mind that grabs onto things with dissatisfaction anymore because you're being mindful when it starts to arise. It can still arise at any time and if you get into your old habitual tendency of somebody said something I don't like and I explode at them, you're going to lose that whole experience and you're going to have to start over again.

See, the whole thing with this practice is learning how to develop equanimity all of time, not just while you're sitting, not just while you're doing your retreat, but in your daily life, and having the balance in your daily life. Like your mate says something and normally that would set your mind off, but when your mindfulness is good, you see that as part of a process and you start relaxing into that and letting it go without re acting like you always acted before. Now you start responding with letting go of the craving, you don't have to protect yourself because when you let go of the craving there's nothing to protect. There's just seeing what arises, and letting it go. And it takes a great deal of balance to do that. It takes remembering not to get into the old habitual tendency, not to continue on doing the same way you've always done it. There has to be some change in perspective. There has to be some change in "I always would control a situation by acting in this way", now you have to let go of the control. And now you have to start seeing it for what it really is instead of getting caught up in it, letting it go and relaxing.

This is the famous section wherin the Buddha talks about a man shot by an Arrow and he goes on and on wanting to know who shot it, what it is made of all the while bleeding to death!

MN:
19. "Suppose, Sunakkhatta, a man were wounded by an arrow thickly smeared with poison, and his friends and companions, his kinsmen and relatives, brought a surgeon. The surgeon would cut around the opening of the wound with a knife, then he would probe for the arrow with a probe, [257] then he would pull out the arrow and would expel the poisonous humour, leaving a trace of it behind. Thinking that no trace was left behind,…

BV: Thinking that the wound is completely clean when it's not. Now, this is referring back to what happens when you might have a very deep spiritual experience, but you fall back into your old habitual tendency of giving into the lust and the hatred and the delusion, but thinking that you're beyond that.

MN:
he would say: 'Good man, the arrow has been pulled out from you; the poisonous humour has been expelled with no trace left behind,

BV: Now, this is talking about here is also talking about a teacher that doesn't really understand when the poisons of lust hatred and delusion are gone.

MN:
and it is incapable of harming you. Eat only suitable food; do not eat unsuitable food or else the wound may suppurate. From time to time wash the wound and from time to time anoint its opening, so that pus and blood do not cover the opening of the wound. Do not walk around in the wind and sun or else dust and dirt may infect the opening of the wound. Take care of your wound, good man, and see to it that the wound heals.'

20. "The man would think: 'The arrow has been pulled out from me; the poisonous humour has been expelled with no trace left behind, and it is incapable of harming me.' He would eat unsuitable food, and the wound would suppurate. He would not wash the wound from time to time nor would he anoint its opening from time to time, and pus and blood would cover the opening of the wound. He would walk around in the wind and sun, and dust and dirt would infect the opening of the wound. He would not take care of his wound, nor would he see to it that the wound heals. Then, both because he does what is unsuitable and because a trace was left behind when the foul poisonous humour was expelled, the wound would swell, and with its swelling he would incur death or deadly suffering.

BV: So he's really saying you got to be careful of the three poisons of lust, hatred and delusion, and not get caught in that. Take care of that, watch how mind grabs onto dissatisfaction when it doesn't meet an expectation and let go of the expectation and let go of the tightness caused by that craving and clinging.

MN:
21. "So too, Sunakkhatta, it is possible that some bhikkhu here might think thus: 'Craving has been called an arrow by the Recluse; the poisonous humour of ignorance is spread about by desire, lust, and ill will. That arrow of craving has been removed from me; [258] the poisonous humour of ignorance has been expelled. I am one who is completely intent upon Nibbāna.' Because he conceives himself thus, though it is contrary to fact, he might pursue those things that are unsuitable for one completely intent on Nibbāna. He might pursue the sight of unsuitable forms with the eye,

BV: And this is where the pride really comes in and the thinking that it's ok for me to do this because I've had this experience..

MN:
he might pursue unsuitable sounds with the ear, unsuitable odours with the nose, unsuitable flavours with the tongue, unsuitable tangibles with the body, or unsuitable mind-objects with the mind. When he pursues the sight of unsuitable forms with the eye...unsuitable mind-objects with the mind, lust invades his mind. With his mind invaded by lust, he would incur death or deadly suffering

BV: So, until there is the experience of fruition, you still are walking a very fine line. When you have the experience of fruition, of either becoming an anāgāmi or an arahat, when you have the fruition, lust and hatred will not arise in your mind ever again. So, it doesn't matter if these other things, these unsuitable things, arise it won't pull your mind to it at all. You won't even want to do them. You'll just say "No, I'm going to go over here and do this. I don't need to be around that kind of energy, I don't want that kind of thing coming into my consciousness", and you'll do it automatically. You'll be repulsed by things that you used to find, the worldly things that you used to find very compelling, but your mind becomes so pure because there's no lust and there's no hatred in your mind ever again. Everything becomes more clear, more bright, more easily recognized, and your mindfulness is so sharp, that you see Dependent Origination in everything. So, you see it as being part of an impersonal process, everything that arises, and there is the letting go, continually, and that is so automatic that you don't even notice it anymore. That's how automatic it becomes.

MN:
22. "For it is death in the Discipline of the Noble One, Sunakkhatta, when one abandons the training and reverts to the low life;

BV: Now he’s talking about Sunakkhatta, who was a monk, and then he disrobed.

MN:
and it is deadly suffering when one commits some defiled offence.

23. "It is possible, Sunakkhatta, that some bhikkhu here might think thus: 'Craving has been called an arrow by the Recluse; the poisonous humour of ignorance

BV: What's ignorance? Ignorance is not seeing how the Four Noble Truths work, in Dependent Origination.

MN:
Repeats (the poisonous humour of ignorance) is spread about by desire, lust, and ill will. That arrow of craving has been removed from me; the poisonous humour of ignorance has been expelled. I am one who is completely intent on Nibbāna.' Being one who really is completely intent on Nibbāna, he would not pursue those things that are unsuitable for one completely intent on Nibbāna. He would not pursue the sight of unsuitable forms with the eye, he would not pursue unsuitable sounds with the ear, unsuitable odours with the nose, unsuitable flavours with the tongue, unsuitable tangibles with the body, or unsuitable mind-objects with the mind. Because he does not pursue the sight of unsuitable forms with the eye...unsuitable mind-objects with the mind, lust does not invade his mind. [259] Because his mind is not invaded by lust, he would not incur death or deadly suffering.

24. "Suppose, Sunakkhatta, a man were wounded by an arrow thickly smeared with poison, and his friends and companions, his kinsmen and relatives, brought a surgeon. The surgeon would cut around the opening of the wound with a knife, then he would probe for the arrow with a probe, then he would pull out the arrow and would expel the poisonous humour without leaving a trace of it behind. Knowing that no trace was left behind, he would say: 'Good man, the arrow has been pulled out from you; the poisonous humour has been expelled with no trace left behind, and it is incapable of harming you. Eat only suitable food; do not eat unsuitable food or else the wound may suppurate. From time to time wash the wound and from time to time anoint its opening, so that pus and blood do not cover the opening of the wound. Do not walk around in the wind and sun or else dust and dirt may infect the opening of the wound. Take care of your wound, good man, and see to it that the wound heals.'

25. "The man would think: 'The arrow has been pulled out from me; the poisonous humour has been expelled with no trace left behind, and it is incapable of harming me.' He would eat only suitable food, and the wound would not suppurate. From time to time he would wash the wound and from time to time he would anoint its opening, and pus and blood would not cover the opening of the wound. He would not walk around in the wind and sun, and dust and dirt would not infect the opening of the wound. He would take care of his wound and would see to it that the wound heals. Then, both because he does what is suitable and because no trace was left behind when the foul poisonous humour was expelled, the wound would heal, and because it had healed and was covered with skin, he would not incur death or deadly suffering.

26. "So too, Sunakkhatta, it is possible that some bhikkhus here might think thus: 'Craving has been called an arrow by the Recluse; [260] the poisonous humour of ignorance is spread about by desire, lust, and ill will. That arrow of craving has been pulled out from me; the poisonous humour of ignorance has been expelled. I am one who is completely intent on Nibbāna. 'Being one who really is completely intent on Nibbāna, he would not pursue those things unsuitable for one completely intent on Nibbāna...(as above)...Because his mind is not invaded by lust, he would not incur death or deadly suffering.

27. "Sunakkhatta, I have given this simile in order to convey a meaning. This is the meaning here: 'Wound' is a term for the six internal bases. 'Poisonous humour' is a term for ignorance.

BV: Not seeing, the four Noble Truths.

MN:
'Arrow' is a term for craving. 'Probe' is a term for mindfulness. 'Knife' is a term for noble wisdom. 'Surgeon' is a term for the Tathāgata, the Accomplished One, the Fully Enlightened One.

28. "That bhikkhu, Sunakkhatta, is one who practises restraint in the six bases of contact. Having understood that acquisition is the root of suffering, being acquisitionless, liberated in the destruction of the acquisitions, it is not possible that he would direct his body or arouse his mind towards any acquisition.

29. "Suppose, Sunakkhatta, there were a bronze cup of beverage possessing a good colour, smell, and taste, but it was mixed with poison, and a man came who wanted to live, not to die, who wanted pleasure and recoiled from pain. What do you think, Sunakkhatta, would that man drink that cup of beverage, knowing: 'If I drink this I will incur death or deadly suffering'?"—"No, venerable sir." [261]—"So too, that bhikkhu is one who practises restraint in the six bases of contact. Having understood that acquisition is the root of suffering, being acquisitionless, liberated in the destruction of acquisitions, it is not possible that he would direct his body or arouse his mind towards any acquisition.

30. "Suppose, Sunakkhatta, there were a deadly poisonous snake, and a man came who wanted to live, not to die, who wanted pleasure and recoiled from pain. What do you think, Sunakkhatta, would that man give that deadly poisonous snake his hand or his thumb, knowing: 'If I am bitten by him I will incur death or deadly suffering'?"—"No, venerable sir."—"So too, when a bhikkhu practises restraint in the six bases of contact, and having understood that attachment is the root of suffering, is without attachment, liberated by the destruction of attachment, it is not possible that he would direct his body or arouse his mind towards any object of attachment."

That is what the Blessed One said. Sunakkhatta, son of the Licchavis, was satisfied and delighted in the Blessed One's words.

BV: Now, this is a real interesting thing because this is what I was starting to write about with this particular sutta, that had to do with fruition. Fruition occurs at any time when mind is developed enough. So, you can still have the experience of Nibbāna, but you haven't got a firm hold on it. It's a tenuous hold. If you keep getting involved with the six sense doors and identifying with it then you soon forget and you don't look deep at "this is part of an impersonal process". This is the most important aspect of the Buddha's teachings is the impersonal nature of everything. The craving, when it arises, that's the start of the 'I am', 'I like this', 'I don't like that'. So, when you start to see everything as being part on an impersonal process, it doesn't hold your attention, it doesn't make your mind go to it. You don't seek out material things, and because your mind doesn't tend towards that, you start looking more at how the impersonal process of Dependent Origination works in everything. And that doesn't mean that you still won't have some emotional things come up. You still can when you've just had the path knowledge, but you start recognizing it really quickly, and you start letting it go of it very quickly. And with that, doing that enough, then you'll have the fruition experience.

When you have the path experience, you have what I said was a brief glimpse of Dependent Origination. You had the cessation of perception and feeling, when the perception and feeling come back, you saw one time, Dependent Origination, you saw all of the links and how each link has the cessation to it. When you have the experience of fruition, you will see that happen either three times or four times depending on whether you become an anāgāmi or an arahat. When you see it happen three times you'll go through the whole process, and then you'll go through the whole process, and then you'll go through the whole process again, and you really got it. But there's still some attachment, there's still some slight desires that you have, that this experience didn't burn away. This experience will burn away the lust and the greed, but you still have some little tiny fetters, if you're an anāgāmi. You still have a little bit of pride. You still have some restlessness, some dullness. You still have a desire to experience another realm. You still have some ignorance. Now, when you become an arahat, the fruition experience is seeing it four times in a row. And when you see that, that last time of seeing it burns away all of these other fetters and you see clearly Dependent Origination and the Four Noble Truths, and this is a deep realization. It's such a deep realization that it changes everything, and there is no more becoming because of that.

ST: ~

BV: Magga is the path, and phala is the fruition. Let's say you have the experience and it's a very light experience, not necessarily to do with meditation. Like Visākhā was a chief supporter for the Buddha, female supporter. When she was eight years old, she heard the Dhamma and her mind was so intelligent that she understood what was being said and she became a sotāpanna right then and right there. Now, this is a "oh wow" experience, and she could have had the fruition of that experience, and the fruition of that experience is just seeing that one time again. Anāthapiṇḍika's daughter, she heard some discourses by the Buddha and she became a sakadāgāmi. Now, this is just from hearing, it's not from practice, and it can happen through practice, or not, depending on your understanding. The only way you can become an anāgāmi or an arahat is through practice. Now, you know there's a lot of the monks that became enlightened and became full-on arahats listening to a discourse, but they had had so much practice all they needed was a tweak in their understanding of what they were seeing, and that was enough to make then become (arahats), but they'd done lots and lots of practice before that. This is one of the things, there's no such a thing as bad meditation, there's just different end results of the meditation. And somebody that can be doing meditation, it doesn't matter whether it's straight vipassanā or samatha meditation, whatever. When their understanding gets tweaked so that they change their perspective a little bit, they're opening themselves up to some really wonderful experiences. Now, the thing with the vipassanā is, never does it go deep enough to experience the cessation of perception and feeling. That only happens through jhāna. Now, it can happen in any one of the jhānas. It can be in the first jhāna, it can arise, it doesn't matter. So, that's a prerequisite; jhāna is a necessary part of the practice, to have that experience, so that you can get to the cessation of perception and feeling. And sometimes people they can have this experience to start off with; they have the path knowledge, and when you're talking about the good qualities of the Buddha, Dhamma, and Saṅgha, when you're talking about the Saṅgha one of the things it says these eight kind of individuals, these four pairs of beings... now what it's talking about is somebody that has a path, somebody that has a path and fruit of the first step, and it goes through all of the steps that way. So, you can become an arahat, but without the fruition you can lose that attainment if you let your mind slip and not get the fruition. So, you have to really be careful of what mind is doing in the present moment, and this is all the time and this is what the practice really is.

BV: So, it all depends on the kind of practice that they're doing, but, see Mahasi Sayadaw came up with the Vipassana method because there was the idea that getting jhāna took too long and he was looking for a more direct path, and to be quite honest you know for a fact jhāna doesn't take that long when you're doing the practice in the right way. If you're not doing it in the right way it can take a long time.

ST: ~

BV: Well, and the reason it takes nine or fifteen years for the monks to experience that is because they sit for half an hour or forty-five minutes a day. You know, and then they're off doing whatever they do, and they don't... see, during the time of the Buddha there was no such a thing as doing a retreat. You had your own time and you could do whatever you wanted with it and a lot of the monks chose to do the meditation, but it wasn't a group meditation so much as it was individual.

ST: ~

BV: Personal responsibility. The idea of a quote 'retreat' is really fairly new.

ST: ~

BV: Yes, and I'm not saying it's good, bad or indifferent. I'm just saying that it's just a different way of doing things. And the Japanese have been doing this for a long time. I mean they've been doing it for hundreds of years, that they all get up and they walk their little circle and then they sit and they do their meditation, they get up and they walk in their little circle...

ST: ~

BV: Yes, and that's the big discussion about whether to have a fan on because the noise disturbed my meditation is just a classic way of understanding that they were doing one-pointed concentration rather than tranquillity vipassanā.

ST: ~

BV: That's because Sayadaw U Jannaka, he used to always say that noise is a thorn in the side of a meditator. So, if you're going to get up and move around, do it quietly.

But the practice of lessening the involvement with the sense doors means that there is the practice of recognizing when that sense door arises and starting to relax into that as soon as you possibly can remember because the danger of it is, at first you start thinking about that sense door, and then you're thinking about this, and then you're thinking about that, and then you're thinking about that, and you go a long ways away with the thinking, and this is with your daily activities. If you want to become super-efficient at whatever you want to do you have to be able to recognize the craving and the clinging and let it go right then and then you're just staying with what you're doing with that super-clear mind that's quiet. And that doesn't mean to say that you don't have thoughts arise, but the thoughts that arise are what is happening in the present moment. That's the kind of clear thinking that has intuition in it. If it's thoughts of the past, it's thoughts of the future, those are the thoughts that have the craving and the clinging in it, and I can't stress enough the importance of smiling into everything that you're doing. The more you can smile, the more clear your mind becomes, the more alert your mind becomes, and that's really the best mindfulness builder that I can think of.

Sutta text translation: (C) Bhikkhu Bodhi 1995, 2001. Reprinted from The Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha: A Translation of the Majjhima Nikaya with permission of Wisdom Publications, 199 Elm Street, Somerville, MA 02144 U.S.A, www.wisdompubs.org

Link to this Talk at Dhammasukha.Org http://www.dhammasukha.org/Study/Talks/Transcripts/MN-105-OCT06-TS.htm

Nibbana -It is attainable -How it happens-How to do it

This is a talk by Bhante Vimalaramsi in which he talks about using the Suttas to show you how to attain Nibbana. He discusses the process of going through the "Tranquil-Aware Jhanas" -Vs. the one-pointed absorption Jhanas referred to in the Vissudhi Magga- to the actual experience of the Path and the Fruition of Nibbana. This is different from the commentaries from which most students get their teachings, but Bhante tells you what actually happens from the past personal real life experiences of his own students.

Here he reads SN#46:54 and discusses the meaning of it as he goes along.

Samyutta Nikaya 46:54 Accompanied by Lovingkindness

Dhamma Talk presented by Bhante Vimalaramsi

25-Aug-07

Dhamma Sukha Meditation Center

　

　

BhanteVimalaramsi: Ok, this sutta tonight, is one that has, caused quite a stir, when I found this in The Samyutta Nikaya, because the standard way of practicing Loving-Kindness, that I learned through the Visuddhimagga, is that Loving-Kindness will take you to the third jhana. Compassion will take you to the third jhana. Joy will take you to the third jhana. Equanimity will take you to the fourth jhana. And that's what an awful lot of people believe. Now this particular sutta is from The Samyutta Nikaya; it's the Bojjhangasamyutta. Bojjhanga means the enlightenment factors, and this is the enlightenment factors accompanied by Loving-Kindness, page 1607 in The Samyutta Nikaya, verse number 54(4)

　

　

54 (4) Accompanied by Lovingkindness
On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling among the Koliyans, where there was a town of the Koliyans {named Haliddavasana.} Then, in the morning, a number of bhikkhus dressed and, taking their bowls and robes, entered Haliddavasana for alms Then it occurred to them: "It is still too early to walk for alms in Haliddavasana Let us go to the park of the wanderers of other sects."

BV: In all of the towns, they had meeting places for the ascetics, and quite often it was in a park. But it would have a roof over it, things like that, so that you could stay out of the rain, but you could still discourse with people with different ideas.

Then those bhikkhus went to the park of the wanderers of other sects. They exchanged greetings with those wanderers and, when they had concluded their greetings and cordial talk, sat down to one side. The wanderers then said to them: "Friends, the ascetic Gotama teaches the Dhamma to his disciples thus: ‘Come, bhikkhus, abandon the five hindrances, the corruptions of the mind that weaken wisdom, and dwell pervading one quarter with a mind imbued with lovingkindness, likewise the second quarter, the third quarter, and the fourth quarter. Thus above, below, across, and everywhere, and to all as to oneself, dwell pervading the entire world with a mind imbued with lovingkindness, vast, exalted, measureless, without hostility, without ill will. Dwell pervading one quarter with a mind imbued with compassion, likewise the second quarter, the third quarter, and the fourth quarter. Thus above, below, across, and everywhere, and to all as to oneself, dwell pervading the entire world with a mind imbued with compassion, vast, exalted, measureless, without hostility, without ill will. Dwell pervading one quarter with a mind imbued with altruistic joy, likewise the second quarter, the third quarter, and the fourth quarter. Thus above, below, across, and everywhere, and to all as to oneself, dwell pervading the entire world with a mind imbued with altruistic joy, vast, exalted, measureless, without hostility, without ill will. Dwell pervading one quarter with a mind imbued with equanimity, likewise the second quarter, the third quarter, and the fourth quarter. Thus above, below, across, and everywhere, and to all as to oneself, dwell pervading the entire world with a mind imbued with equanimity, vast, exalted, measureless, without hostility, without ill will.’
"We too, friends, teach the Dhamma to our disciples thus:
‘Come, friends, abandon the five hindrances ...

BV: And he goes through the whole thing again.

{(all as above)
dwell pervading the entire world with a mind imbued with lovingkindness ... compassion ... altruistic joy ... equanimity
without ill will.’}

So, friends, what here is the distinction, the disparity, the difference between the ascetic Gotama and us, that is, regarding the one Dhamma teaching and the other, regarding the one manner of instruction and the other?"
Then those bhikkhus neither delighted in nor rejected the statement of those wanderers. Without delighting in it, without rejecting it, they rose from their seats and left, thinking, "We shall learn the meaning of this statement in the presence of the Blessed One."

BV: So, rather than get in some kind of a verbal conflict, and trying to explain it to each other, they were silent. They just: "Ok. We'll find out; maybe get back with you later." Like that.

Then, when those bhikkhus had walked for alms in Haliddavasana and had returned from the alms round, after their meal they approached the Blessed One. Having paid homage to him, they sat down to one side and reported to him the entire discussion between those wanderers and themselves. [The Blessed One said:]

"Bhikkhus, when wanderers of other sects speak thus, they should be asked: ‘Friends, how is the liberation of the mind by lovingkindness developed? What does it have as its destination, its culmination, its fruit, its final goal? How is the liberation of the mind by compassion developed? What does it have as its destination, its culmination, its fruit, its final goal? How is the liberation of the mind by altruistic joy developed? What does it have as its destination, its culmination, its fruit, its final goal? How is the liberation of the mind by equanimity developed? What does it have as its destination, its culmination, its fruit, its final goal?’ Being asked thus, those wanderers would not be able to reply and, further, they would meet with vexation. For what reason? Because that would not be within their domain. I do not see anyone, bhikkhus, in this world with its devas, Mãra, and Brahma, in this generation with its ascetics and brahmins, its devas and humans, who could satisfy the mind with an answer to these questions except the Tathagata or a disciple of the Tathagata or one who has heard it from them.
"And how, bhikkhus, is the liberation of the mind by loving-kindness developed? What does it have as its destination, its culmination, its fruit, its final goal? Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu develops the enlightenment factor of mindfulness accompanied by lovingkindness ...

BV: Ok, and it goes through the whole thing: the enlightenment factor of investigation of your experience; the enlightenment factor of energy; (Now all of these are accompanied with Loving-Kindness) the enlightenment factor of joy; of tranquility; of collectedness; of equanimity. Ok-

the enlightenment factor of equanimity accompanied by lovingkindness, based upon seclusion, dispassion, and cessation, maturing in release. If he wishes: ‘May I dwell perceiving the repulsive in the unrepulsive,’

BV: And what does that say? When you see things that are not repulsive, you don't go out and grab after them. So you repulse them. You're not getting involved with it.

he dwells perceiving the repulsive therein. If he wishes: ‘May I dwell perceiving the unrepulsive in the repulsive,’

BV: So, it's talking more about keeping balance in your mind.

he dwells perceiving the unrepulsive therein. If he wishes: ‘May I dwell perceiving the repulsive in the unrepulsive and in the repulsive,’ he dwells perceiving the repulsive therein. If he wishes: ‘May I dwell perceiving the unrepulsive in the repulsive and in the unrepulsive,’he dwells perceiving the unrepulsive therein. If he wishes: ‘Avoiding both the unrepulsive and the repulsive, may I dwell equanimously, mindful and clearly comprehending,’ then he dwells therein equanimously, mindful and clearly comprehending. Or else he enters and dwells in the deliverance of the beautiful.

BV: The deliverance of the beautiful is talking about getting into the fourth jhana, and experiencing the fourth jhana. Now, one of the reasons that everybody thinks that Loving-Kindness only goes to the third jhana is because you feel it here. But you get into the fourth jhana, you don't feel it anymore. And you start radiating from your head, and they don't see that. So they say: "Well, you can only get to the third jhana with this practice." When in fact, you both know, that's not true.

Bhikkhus, the liberation of mind by lovingkindness has the beautiful as its culmination

BV: Fourth jhana.

I say, for a wise bhikkhu here who has not penetrated to a superior liberation.
"And how, bhikkhus, is the liberation of the mind by compassion developed? What does it have as its destination, its culmination, its fruit, its final goal? Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu develops the enlightenment factor of mindfulness accompanied by compassion ...

BV: And then you go through all the enlightenment factors again.

{the enlightenment factor of equanimity accompanied by compassion,}

based upon seclusion, dispassion, and cessation, maturing in release. If he wishes: ‘May I dwell perceiving the repulsive

BV: And all of that stuff.

{in the unrepulsive,’ he dwells perceiving the repulsive therein.... If he wishes: ‘Avoiding both the unrepulsive and the repulsive,}

may I dwell equanimously, mindful and clearly comprehending,’ then he dwells therein equanimously, mindful and clearly comprehending. Or else, with the complete transcendence of perceptions of forms, with the passing away of perceptions of sensory impingement, with nonattention to perceptions of diversity,

BV: That sentence has got to be taken out, that's all there is to it. Because there is attention to perceptions to change, and they're saying there's non attention to it, and it can't be.

aware that ‘space is infinite,’ he enters and dwells in the base of the infinity of space. Bhikkhus, the liberation of mind by compassion has the base of the infinity of space as its culmination, I say, for a wise bhikkhu here who has not penetrated to a superior liberation.

BV: In other words, you haven't gone on.

So, it's saying right here, that compassion is experienced in the arupa jhana of infinite space.

S: What is compassion though? I don't know the difference between compassion and Loving-Kindness.

BV: Keep practicing. Tell me when you see a change in the feeling. And I'm not talking about location; I'm talking about quality of the feeling.

"And how, bhikkhus, is the liberation of the mind by altruistic joy developed? What does it have as its destination, its culmination, its fruit, its final goal? Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu develops the enlightenment factor of mindfulness accompanied by altruistic joy ...

BV: And accompanied by all of the others. And -

the enlightenment factor of equanimity accompanied by altruistic joy, based upon seclusion, dispassion, and cessation, maturing in release. If he wishes: ‘May I dwell perceiving the repulsive in the unrepulsive,’ he dwells perceiving the repulsive therein.... If he wishes: ‘Avoiding both the unrepulsive and the repulsive, may I dwell equanimously, mindful and clearly comprehending,’ then he dwells therein equanimously, mindful and clearly comprehending. Or else, by completely transcending the base of the infinity of space, aware that ‘consciousness is infinite,’ he enters and dwells in the base of the infinity of consciousness. Bhikkhus, the liberation of mind by altruistic joy has the base of the infinity of consciousness as its culmination, I say, for a wise bhikkhu here who has not penetrated to a superior liberation.

BV: So we're talking about, when, you get to a certain depth, in your practice, and your mind becomes calm, then the feeling of Loving-Kindness changes to a feeling of compassion, and then you start feeling the infinity of space. As your mind becomes even more calm, then the feeling of compassion changes to a feeling of joy. This is not the same kind of joy that you're used to. And you start seeing individual consciousnesses arising and passing away. And this is at all of the sense doors, but it's most easily seen through the eyes, because about eighty five percent of our senses is really through our eyes. And that's not to say you won't see it at the other sense doors, you will. But this one you really notice, much more easily.

"And how, bhikkhus, is the liberation of the mind by equanimity developed? What does it have as its destination, its culmination, its fruit, its final goal? Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu develops the enlightenment factor of mindfulness accompanied by equanimity ...

BV: And then you go through all of those.

the enlightenment factor of equanimity accompanied by equanimity,

BV: And this is where equanimity gets very strong.

based upon seclusion, dispassion, and cessation, maturing in release. If he wishes: ‘May I dwell perceiving the repulsive in the unrepulsive,’ he dwells perceiving the repulsive therein..,. If he wishes: ‘Avoiding both the unrepulsive and the repulsive, may I dwell equanimously, mindful and clearly comprehending,’ then he dwells therein equanimously, mindful and clearly comprehending. Or else, by completely transcending the base of the infinity of consciousness, aware that ‘there is nothing,’ he enters and dwells in the base of nothingness. Bhikkhus, the liberation of mind by equanimity has the base of nothingness as its culmination, {I say, for a wise bhikkhu here who has not penetrated to a superior liberation."}

BV: Ok, that's as high, or deep, as the brahma viharas will take you. Now, when you start looking at those spaces in between the consciousnesses, then you'll start noticing that mind is not looking outside of itself any more. There's nothing. But there's still stuff. Now this is where you really get to fine tune your energy. When the feeling of joy changes to the feeling of equanimity, and you're radiating that equanimity in all directions at the same time, and without any boundary or limits, that is your object of meditation. But you will notice that you still have the five aggregates, you still have the enlightenment factors, you can still have, and be knocked out of the jhana if your mindfulness isn't sharp enough, and you will experience restlessness, or dullness of mind, depending on the amount of energy you're putting into watching. It's real important now to keep adjusting the energy little bit by little bit. And what I mean by that is the energy you're putting into watching. Ok, as you're observing. If you put a little bit too much energy into it, you get restless. And it's not just restlessness that comes up; there's the dislike of it. So you get to work with that for a little while, but you let go very quickly. And what you're teaching yourself now is to really, really have strong balance, and you're teaching yourself more and more about how to use the six R’s automatically, to adjust them. And when it starts happening by itself, then you'll go deeper. Now the reason that you only go to the realm of nothingness with the brahma viharas is because that's as far as feeling goes, and the brahma viharas is a feeling meditation.

Now you get into a space where you're sitting and you think: "I've been sitting for a long time, and it seems like I've been asleep. Is it possible to sit really, really still, and still be asleep?" But when you come out of that, you start reflecting on what happened while you were in that state, and there's still things that are happening. And as you reflect, you'll start to see how your automatic habit of the six R's starts to take over and you don't become involved with things that... I don't want to talk too much about it. But, there will be the reflecting and the realizing: "Ah, this is what was happening then." And how your mindfulness and the six R's just release it and relax and continue.

Now when you get into the arupa jhanas, your mind is getting into vibration, not movement, so much. As you go deeper in, the vibration becomes less and less. And when you get to neither-perception-nor-non-perception, one of the amazing things that happens is, before, you felt everything expanding, now you feel it getting smaller and smaller and smaller until you can't really tell whether it's there or not. There's slight vibration, slight movement of mind. But you keep relaxing. See that's the whole thing, with the six R's, that relaxing step, that took you from your mind doing this, and flip-flopping all over the place, to being able to see slight tiny movements, and eventually, you'll get to a place that it stops.

You'll be in that state for a period of time. It's just like somebody flips the lights out. Just stops. When the perception and feeling come back, that's when you see the links of Dependent Origination, and the Four Noble Truths. And you see the cessation of all of that. And it's such a big: "Oh, wow.", that your mind goes into the unconditioned. When you let go of that last bit of ignorance, how can you talk about there being anything else arising? It's just an unconditioned state. So, this is what we're after; this is what we're working for, but, you will experience joy like you've never experienced before. And you come and you say: "Bhante, I've just had this experience.", and I get you to talk about it, and then I say: "Well, ok, go sit." (Laughs) "Continue."

S: Bring the energy back up.

BV: Oh, you don't need it back up; you need to balance it now, because it's really strong, and it's very difficult to sit at that time. But I don't care. You got to go sit. (Laughs) You have experienced the path knowledge, and, what I'm interested in, is having you experience not only the path knowledge, but the fruition knowledge. Now when the fruition occurs, it can happen fast, but for most people that I've seen, it just doesn't happen right away. Ok, one of the reasons I tell you to go sit, is to see whether it can happen for you right away.

But you start becoming much more aware of Dependent Origination in everything, and you start seeing it, and you wouldn't consider breaking a precept; you want to keep your mind as pure as possible, so you let go of a lot of your old habitual ways of thinking and doing things, and now you start doing the more wholesome kind of way. And, you can be washing the dishes, you can be taking a bath, and all of a sudden, you feel it starting to come on again. You feel your mind starting to go deep. So you stop what you're doing; you go sit.

And, there are four steps of enlightenment. If you see Dependent Origination arise and pass away one time, that means you have experienced the fruition of sotapanna. And with the fruition of sotapana, there is personality change. You never again believe that anything is personal. You see everything as being an impersonal process. You don't ever have any doubt arising as to whether this is really the right path or not. You know that it’s the right path. You completely let go of any ideas that rites and rituals will lead to nibbana. Ok, those are the major changes that happen in your personality. Your personality starts to get softer. You won't break any precepts on purpose.

Now, if, while you are sitting and you see Dependent Origination arise and cease two times, very quickly, then you have experienced the fruition of the second stage of enlightenment, sakadagami. The lust and the hatred are weakened very much.

Now, it's a real interesting phenomena, that during the time of the Buddha, many people became sotapannas and sakadagamis just by listening to what the Buddha was saying, and comprehending it, and they might listen to a Dhamma talk and they go back and they start thinking about it and start thinking about how they see these things. Say he gave a talk about Dependent Origination and they start looking at Dependent Origination in everything, and you're teaching yourself how that actually works. You can become enlightened at that time. Doesn’t happen very often. But it does happen.

Now, if you're sitting and you see the Dependent Origination arise and pass away three times very quickly, then you have the unconditioned experience, when you come back, you'll notice that you have had a major personality change. No lust or hatred of any kind will come up in your mind, no matter what happens to you. It will never come up again.

Or, if you're sitting, you can have it arise and pass away four times. If that happens, not only do you experience all of the other fetters that I've told you about, you experience the fact that restlessness will never arise again in your mind. Torpor will never again arise in your mind. the desire to experience other realms will never arise in your mind again. Pride, conceit, will never arise in your mind again. And also ignorance will never arise in your mind again. Now these last five fetters are subtle.

If you experience the third stage of sainthood, that's being an anagami, you can still have some little traces of pride. It's not that you're, uh, I don’t know how to explain it exactly. It's not that you're, personally attached to it, but you think what you did is pretty good.

S: Which it is.

BV: Well, yeah, it is. There's no getting around it, but there is a slight attachment to the clinging of it. So, you can say: "Well, what's going to happen to me if I have this experience?" And my answer is: "Honestly, I don't know." - "Well, I don’t want to be this. I want to be that." - "Ok." (Laughter) (Sighs) I have had some students, that in past lifetimes, they remembered past lifetimes, and in past lifetimes they've remembered making a determination to experience this level or that level, and that's what happened to them. So I have to suspect that this will happen if you make a determination not to go any higher than, this level or that level, that that determination is very strong, and it will kind of influence it. But you can't ask me, because I don't know. Only guy that knew was the Buddha. He knew that if you continue on this path, you will experience this. But if you stop, you won't experience it.

So, this particular sutta is very, very important, in helping people let go of wrong view of what the Loving-Kindness is all about. I've said it myself when I was practicing Mahasi Sayadaw's method: "Well, Loving-Kindness, it will only get you into jhana. The Loving-Kindness and the brahma viharas lead you directly to nibbana. They don't take you all the way; they lead you up as far as they can go, and then there are some, other little tiny attachments that you have to let go of, and when you get into the realm of nothingness, that’s when you'll be able to see what happens before mind starts moving. And I'm not going to tell you. (Laughs) You got to tell me.

So, when I ran across this sutta, I was very shocked by it. And then I started writing to a lot of other teachers that had been telling me the other method, and saying: "Go to this page, look at this page, it's one six o seven, go there and read that." And now there are teachers that are teaching absorption meditation, but they're talking about samatha vipassana. That's what I teach, samatha vipassana. They don't have the definition very good yet. But it's finding these kind of suttas and showing where there has been some wrong thinking along the way, is starting to open up a lot more of people's thinking. And of course there's going to be some people that are attached, and some people that will still criticize, but that's theirs, I don't care.

One of the things that Khema is continually amazed by, is how much courage I have to come out and say: "I know you've been practicing this way for thirty five years, but look at that!" But I can't help myself. And it's ingrained. I want everybody to be able to experience a lot of the things that I've experienced through meditation, and I know that they can. So I'm real anxious to correct some wrong thinking.

Now, what's the difference between constructive criticism, and criticism? Tell me.

S: Constructive criticism has compassion and Loving-Kindness motivating it.

BV: Yes, there is that, but also it is more impersonal. Ok, constructive criticism is an impersonal process, that means that there's no emotion behind it. So what you're saying is: "You've been practicing this way for a long time; I've just found in this sutta that it says this, and do with it what you want." Now that's constructive criticism. And it's not politically correct to come out and say something like that, because politically correct means trying to agree with everybody no matter what, and it doesn't happen.

So we have to be able to be open enough not to get emotional, and if we can stay balanced when we show other people these things, they're start to hear it over a period of time. And I've been back in this country nine years, and that's what's starting to happen. People are starting to actually listen and I run across teachers every now and then that have been teaching the arupa jhanas in absorption, and I show them this kind of stuff, and say: "There's another way, you ought to look at it." So, we'll wait and see.

One of the things that U Silananda impressed upon me when I first started practicing and being his attendant and that sort of thing, was: "Don't grow fast. Grow slowly. Get a good foundation. And then everything will take off by itself." That's what I've been trying to do in the last nine years. I've had opportunities to be at other places where there was a lot of people that would listen to me, but it would be like a flash in the pan. And what I want is people that are really ready and willing to come and go through the changes and see this stuff is real. And then when you go back out into your society, you can show other people how real it actually is. And that's the only way I can see Dhamma lasting in this century.

We have people that they love being therapists and going to the end of what ever the pain is that's causing me my upset. But that's not really letting it go. Why? Because there's still tension and tightness there.

So, eventually, over a period of time, many people will start to catch it.

End of Talk

Link to this Talk at Dhammsukha.org

Get started with meditation using instructions from Bhante Vimalaramsi.

Sutta translation (C) Bhikkhu Bodhi 2000. Reprinted from The Connected Discourses of the Buddha: A Translation of the Samyutta Nikaya with permission of Wisdom Publications, 199 Elm Street, Somerville, MA 02144 U.S.A,www.wisdompubs.org

Bhante Visits Co Lam Temple in Seattle

Bhante Vimalaramsi spent a week in Seattle giving talks at the temple and doing meditation sessions for up to 90 people at a time. The Vietnamese community was very happy to receive him.

Please enjoy some pictures and a short video

PhotoAlbum


Video at the Co Lam Temple

Bhante will arrive in San Jose/San Francisco Area on Thursday April 2 for a series of talks there.

Information for San Francisco and ongoing events can be found here: Dhammasukha.com Wiki